"KONY 2012"

So, what would you say should be done about instances like this? Just leave them alone and let them continue to grow worse over time, until it becomes a direct threat to first world countries and much more difficult to fix? One thing is for sure, doing nothing will not fix it; doing something and failing is better than doing nothing, even if we lose time and money doing so. Otherwise, I feel that our morals take a bigger hit than the material losses.

So, what would you say should be done about instances like this? Just leave them alone and let them continue to grow worse over time, until it becomes a direct threat to first world countries and much more difficult to fix? One thing is for sure, doing nothing will not fix it; doing something and failing is better than doing nothing, even if we lose time and money doing so. Otherwise, I feel that our morals take a bigger hit than the material losses.

Sorry but let me lol a bit.
Doing something and failing can make things far worse that what what they would naturally evolve to, do you know one of the reasons (if not the only) they use childrens as soilders? Some one tried crushing them and failed and they went on a recruitment spree so when they came back with a bigger force they also had a bigger one.

You didn't really answer my question.

So, what would you say should be done about instances like this? Just leave them alone and let them continue to grow worse over time, until it becomes a direct threat to first world countries and much more difficult to fix? One thing is for sure, doing nothing will not fix it; doing something and failing is better than doing nothing, even if we lose time and money doing so. Otherwise, I feel that our morals take a bigger hit than the material losses.

Sooo to prevent them from killing children you propose killing these children. Yeah.. that works... NOT.

Peace talks and negotiations are the way to go, IMO anyway.

Funny how they want to stop the killing and all when they have a picture in their site of the creators holding guns and acting bad ass

You didn't really answer my question.

This since you ask:

Peace talks and negotiations are the way to go, IMO anyway.

Whats's the worse that could happen? They don't care and continue doing what they were doing, but thats better than them having to work harder (getting more money (read: stealing, sexual slavery, etc...) and new recruits for the ones you just killed) if you mess up trying to kill them.

Sooo to prevent them from killing children you propose killing these children.

I didn't say that, you did. Just look at how they killed Bin Laden, even that was not a real demonstration of the best they can do; you are vastly underestimating our armed forces. My dad has a long time friend who is a Ranger, and I've been around him quite a bit over the years. Everything from how they carry themselves, their reaction time, everything, it's just, different. Combine that with the state of the art weapons they are given, and they can take out literally anybody on this planet if they become a target, no matter what kind of security they have. The only limitations are political in natural, the backlash against our nation as a whole would be pretty much international if we started assassinating the heads of country for UN members like China. Kony has no such cushioning.

I didn't say that, you did. Just look at how they killed Bin Laden, even that was not a real demonstration of the best they can do; you are vastly underestimating our armed forces. My dad has a long time friend who is a Ranger, and I've been around him quite a bit over the years. Everything from how they carry themselves, their reaction time, everything, it's just, different. Combine that with the state of the art weapons they are given, and they can take out literally anybody on this planet if they become a target, no matter what kind of security they have. The only limitations are political in natural, the backlash against our nation as a whole would be pretty much international if we started assassinating the heads of country for UN members like China. Kony has no such cushioning.

Bin Laden was not guarded by children. They went in knowing if they failed or if there were collateral damage, they were no worse off. This is different. Using military action against children is wrong and it is never okay.

So, what would you say should be done about instances like this? Just leave them alone and let them continue to grow worse over time, until it becomes a direct threat to first world countries and much more difficult to fix? One thing is for sure, doing nothing will not fix it; doing something and failing is better than doing nothing, even if we lose time and money doing so. Otherwise, I feel that our morals take a bigger hit than the material losses.

I suggest you read other posts before writting.
It's Kony 2012 we're talking about not the whole issue. Supporting it is wrong, bad help is just, well... bad. It's not like Invisible Children is the only organization related to that situation, not supporting them isn't the same as "leaving them alone and let them continue grow worse". However, the other way around is true: supporting Kony2012 is making the problem grow worse over time.
You're not only losing money and time, you're making the situation worse. I already gave an example of a similar situation... even articles people have posted earlier point to the same conclution.
Also, your posts make me tear my hair out too.

I didn't say that, you did. Just look at how they killed Bin Laden, even that was not a real demonstration of the best they can do; you are vastly underestimating our armed forces. My dad has a long time friend who is a Ranger, and I've been around him quite a bit over the years. Everything from how they carry themselves, their reaction time, everything, it's just, different. Combine that with the state of the art weapons they are given, and they can take out literally anybody on this planet if they become a target, no matter what kind of security they have. The only limitations are political in natural, the backlash against our nation as a whole would be pretty much international if we started assassinating the heads of country for UN members like China. Kony has no such cushioning.

The problem is not the leaders of the movement, it's the whole country. It's set up in a way that favors authoritarian leaderships and corruption, it's not just a small mafia doing some little stuff.
It's like in Words' case, the problem is widespread and complicated. There's a lot of different players involved and you don't really know who is your friend and who is your enemy.

The problem is not the leaders of the movement, it's the whole country. It's set up in a way that favors authoritarian leaderships and corruption, it's not just a small mafia doing some little stuff.

I realize it is a completely different society from the one here in the US or most other more civilized countries, but again, it's a fact that leaving it alone will not change anything. Local trends and culture are NOT subject to change unless given outside stimulus; many of the more isolated groups of people, not just in Africa but in all parts of the world, are still following the hunter/gatherer nomadic formula, and that's about as "old trend" as you can get.

Also, your posts make me tear my hair out too.

I get that a lot, and have learned to accept it, so, thanks for the backhand without pointing out any flaws that are actually true. I'm also used to that. If someone points out something I agree I am incorrect on, I will not stubbornly stick to it, I'm not an idiot; if you want to get anywhere with me though, you will have to give me reasons I agree with, which requires time. This is not a childish fight, it's a debate, so please don't fling insults, I'm getting tired of it; just keep talking until something either makes sense to you or something makes sense to me.

I know this is about KONY 2012 and I know that it's more of a fad than anything else, but that doesn't change anything. Millions of ignorant followers are arguably more powerful than millions of informed ones; their opinions are stronger because they lack the knowledge of any flaws of the movement. I use this as a plus because uninformed people are much better at spreading a cause. In this case, it's more important to get quantity over quality, because sadly government today is a popularity contest. Unless we play their numbers game, nothing will get done, and if nothing is done, it will get worse, that is my genuine feeling on matters of this nature. It's not a matter of "more harm than good", in my eyes, regardless of what this accomplishes.

I think this needs to be made known, however, I wouldn't donate to this. If you check into their monies, you'll see that only 33%ish actually goes toward what they're saying it's suppose to go for. I don't feel like donating money to a group that is going to spend it on travel expenses and 5 star hotels. I understand this is a horrible thing happening over there, but what about our own issues here in America. I'm sorry and this may sound rude and horrible of me, but I'm focusing on our own issues. I donate to breast cancer research, March of Dimes, Autism Awareness, etc.

Plus, everyone that watches that video, is doing what this Kony person wants. It's making him famous. I won't watch it because A. I'm not into making this di*k bag into some pop culture phenom. B. I'm not donating, so I'm not wasting my time. C. I know there are issues over there, I don't need to waste 30 minutes of my life that I won't get back and D. My friends on FB feel the same as I. They won't watch it either and it will become more useless spam.

...Wikipedia? Really? Never go to wiki for a true and hard factual source.

...lmao sheep. Probably should update those facts.

I think this needs to be made known, however, I wouldn't donate to this.

I think this is all that needs to be said. This guy isn't scamming people, he's doing exactly what he sought out for. The problem is he's misadvertising where the money is going. The issue is real and people should be aware about it. Mission accomplished. Now am I going to throw more money at an organization to continue advertising that? Probably not.

The organization's questionable approach shouldn't undermind the fact that this is a true problem and should be noticed. Can the USA handle taking care of it? Not now.

I think this needs to be made known, however, I wouldn't donate to this.

Agreed; the important thing about this movement to me is not that IT does something, but rather, it stimulates people to do something in a way that actually matters.

I stopped watching when I heard the word Facebook...

Stupid commercials...

Peace talks and negotiations are the way to go, IMO anyway.

They said the same thing to Hitler look how that turned out. Peace talks rarely ever work.

So, what would you say should be done about instances like this? Just leave them alone and let them continue to grow worse over time, until it becomes a direct threat to first world countries and much more difficult to fix? One thing is for sure, doing nothing will not fix it; doing something and failing is better than doing nothing, even if we lose time and money doing so. Otherwise, I feel that our morals take a bigger hit than the material losses.

The whole situation is just too blown up. The LRA is as good as dead; on the steady decline for the past 10 years. As long as no one directly supports/funds them, they'll just choke to death out of lack of funds. African infrastructure, at the same time, has been getting better (albeit slowly). They have the systems in place to minimize, if not completely prevent, whatever the LRA try to pull off.

So yes, just leave them alone, and they WILL die. They haven't been active for years. The issues the film points out are a decade old. Ugandans themselves can go and tell you that, and they have.

I mean the LRA hasn't been in Uganda for nearly a decade. What will giving money to the Ugandan government do at that point? There exists such a thing as sovereignty and national autonomy. The Ugandan military can't just enter another country under the pretence of hunting down a war criminal with an army comprised of children, many of them having already died of maltreatment and malnutrition. In addition, the army itself is no less corrupt than Kony, with frequent allegations of looting and rape.

I didn't say that, you did. Just look at how they killed Bin Laden, even that was not a real demonstration of the best they can do; you are vastly underestimating our armed forces. My dad has a long time friend who is a Ranger, and I've been around him quite a bit over the years. Everything from how they carry themselves, their reaction time, everything, it's just, different. Combine that with the state of the art weapons they are given, and they can take out literally anybody on this planet if they become a target, no matter what kind of security they have. The only limitations are political in natural, the backlash against our nation as a whole would be pretty much international if we started assassinating the heads of country for UN members like China. Kony has no such cushioning.

Kony has the cushioning of being in another country, and that's all he needs as protection to prevent any NATO forces to go and assassinate him. He's already internationally wanted, but that doesn't mean an international power can go and pick him up. It just means that in whatever country he happens to be in, that military has the right and responsibility to capture him.

The effectiveness of killing Bin Laden is debatable. It was more a show of force than anything. The consequences for it were an almost complete breakdown in relations with Pakistan, as well as a rise in insurgence attacks all over the middle east and North Africa. Through killing one figure head, not even a lynch pin, hundreds of people died as collateral.

I know this is about KONY 2012 and I know that it's more of a fad than anything else, but that doesn't change anything. Millions of ignorant followers are arguably more powerful than millions of informed ones; their opinions are stronger because they lack the knowledge of any flaws of the movement. I use this as a plus because uninformed people are much better at spreading a cause. In this case, it's more important to get quantity over quality, because sadly government today is a popularity contest. Unless we play their numbers game, nothing will get done, and if nothing is done, it will get worse, that is my genuine feeling on matters of this nature. It's not a matter of "more harm than good", in my eyes, regardless of what this accomplishes.

Ignorance is always worse than well informed opinions. I've said this before but "Idealism is admirable, however uninformed idealism is dangerous and self destructive." Their opinions are not at all stronger, because it's just that much easier to belittle the movement, similar to Occupy. In fact, it just makes the whole movement look more silly, as it just becomes a case of a bunch of drones not knowing what they are fighting for.

You said it yourself, it's a popularity contest, but not only of who our leaders are, but also what we believe in. While our countries always flaunt around about the importance of democracy, that sadly isn't an issue people are fighting for right now. There are so many totalitarian and authoritarian regimes in Africa and the Middle East, including Uganda, but no one's fund raising money to put a good infrastructure in place in those countries to prevent it. It's just that promoting democracy is not as cool or romantic as going in a country guns blazing and shooting down the bad guy. That is essentially what Kony12 promotes, and is essentially what every other intervention by the West has promoted for the past half century. Just because something is popular doesn't mean it's the right decision.

Frankly this is just an issue of the west's Saviour Complex, and it's inability to get over the fact that we're not colonialists anymore. We don't have any responsibility, nor authority, to go intervene in a foreign country. Almost every instance in which we enter a third world country, things are much worse off after we're done than before we interfered in the first place. Iraq is in shambles, the Taliban is stronger than ever in Afghanistan, Middle-eastern insurgency has hit an all time high.

People get the wrong impression that sweeping, (relative) overnight changes, are what makes things better. This just isn't the case. Throwing money at something, or publicizing a cause does very little of anything. It takes years, even decades to make the slightest in positive, win-win, changes.

I'll edit and read/respond to you in a minute, but, just wanted to post this link before I forget.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew...-film.html
The one thing I care about in that article is this; “There has not been a single soul from the LRA here since 2006. Now we have peace, people are back in their homes, they are planting their fields, they are starting their businesses. That is what people should help us with.”

It should be about giving them what they need, not what we think they need. If they believe he won't be back, then maybe he won't, they know more about the area than we do. Sure, I feel like it's important to get rid of him, but first priority should be stabilizing the areas he has been through.

edit:

Frankly this is just an issue of the west's Saviour Complex, and it's inability to get over the fact that we're not colonialists anymore. We don't have any responsibility, nor authority, to go intervene in a foreign country. Almost every instance in which we enter a third world country, things are much worse off after we're done than before we interfered in the first place. Iraq is in shambles, the Taliban is stronger than ever in Afghanistan, Middle-eastern insurgency has hit an all time high.

I have no argument against the fact that when the US tries to fix something through force it breaks it even worse, but the difference is, I believe if it is done CORRECTLY it will have positive effects. Perhaps you are right, and blindly taking action can be worse than doing nothing, hell, even planning for it and doing something can be worse than nothing, if our track record is any indication. But, I still feel like we can do something about this; relying on other governments to fix something is frustrating and usually doesn't even work, because they are either sympathizing with or being paid off by the person/group we are trying to get at. I don't have a good way around that, and obviously nobody else does either, but that doesn't make it any less wrong.

One thing I will say is, I did not realize the region was that stabilized on its own already, so I probably should have had a bit more faith in their ability to put things back together on their own.

I know this is about KONY 2012 and I know that it's more of a fad than anything else, but that doesn't change anything. Millions of ignorant followers are arguably more powerful than millions of informed ones; their opinions are stronger because they lack the knowledge of any flaws of the movement. I use this as a plus because uninformed people are much better at spreading a cause. In this case, it's more important to get quantity over quality, because sadly government today is a popularity contest. Unless we play their numbers game, nothing will get done, and if nothing is done, it will get worse, that is my genuine feeling on matters of this nature. It's not a matter of "more harm than good", in my eyes, regardless of what this accomplishes.

Read http://justiceinconflict.org/2012/03/07/...n-a-notch/ "the problem isn't popularity" again. That's why I'm tearing my heart out, you're discussing things that are already covered in previous posts, articles and it just makes no sense. To you the end is to make the world a better place, the means don't matter and if in the way you make the world a worse place, it doesn't matter because neither the means or, it seems, the end you ARE actually going to achieve matter either. Is contradictory. The real end to you, and some others, is just having people be part of a social movement, regardless of it's utility.
Having people know solves pomegranate. Having people do useless pomegranate solves pomegranate. Having people pineapple whoever they intend to help, obviously doesn't do any good.
Again, read other articles. People who do know the problem and study it, where I live and in Uganda too, say that "until the underlying problem -the region's poor governance - is adequately deal with, there will be no sustainable peace." War achieves nothing, having people notice there's a problem does nothing. Go tell Kony 2012 supporters that this is the actual problem, what are they going to do? There's nothing to do that might be substancial if the end is helping that people, other than, of course, donations to education and health. That's the only way to go.
When it comes to internal political problems in foreign countries (or even in our own land) we can't force change through war if in the end the results would be people building similar regimes. It would be worse if US or any other country meddles and tries to force change too. It's far better if you let people in this situations grow culturally so they develop some sort of political awareness, a stance and finally the motivation and the guts to actually do something about their, or our, poor governments. The help Kony 2012 advertises doesn't preach this, and would undermine whatever chance Ugandan kids and future generations might have to properly deal with their problems.
The underlined part that I quoted makes me think that you care much more about what you and your fellow citizens do about it. Think of it this way: doing nothing would help countries like mine, like Uganda and who knows how many others. It would be way better. Stop meddling in our politics and funding our armies and we will be forever grateful. Work in your own internal problems first, maybe that'll inspire countries in this sort of situations.

They said the same thing to Hitler look how that turned out. Peace talks rarely ever work.

[COLOR="#cc8899"]
That's because everyone thought appeasing him was the way to go. Horrible idea. That's NOT what peace talks and negotiations are supposed to be. Also, way to go - proving the "all arguments on the internet eventually lead to nazi/Hitler comparisons" theory yet again.[/COLOR]