Ask an Atheist

How do they know about God with God being... unknowable?

Very easy.

God is the all knowing, all powerful, perfect being. We, as mere mortals and humans, cannot even imagine or come close to seeing or believing what God is like. But we know that he must exist because we see him present in every day life. We know he's around us, inside us, and helps us to guide our decisions. But actually trying to figure out who or what the almighty perfect being could be is impossible due to his divine stature.

Check out Karl Barth's "wholly other" theory. This is from a neo-orthodox perspective of Christianity:

In contrast to this, the Neo-Orthodox approach to finding God is ethereal and mystical, and Christ is wholly 'other.' Karl Barth taught that the Scriptures were only a guide to the revelation of Christ and that we need an existentialist encounter with Christ in order to know Him. He rejected any place for proof or evidence, fully supporting the 'leap of faith' concept. He also rejected the concept that we can learn anything at all about God from the natural world (the apostle Paul, however, is quite clear that the natural world itself teaches us so much about God that we are 'without excuse' if we then reject Him! See Romans 1:18-20).

The Bible also supports this notion (John 14:6-14). Karl Barth conjured this idea of the wholly other while reading Genesis. At one point - before the great sin - God and Adam were one. Adam was created of God and God created Adam (Genesis 1:26-27). There was this connection that existed there. But then sin broke this bond between God and man, so the divine connection is broken (Genesis 3:7-8). It is therefore impossible for man to know God, because God has rejected man for his acceptance of sin. It is only by attempting to continually re-establish the wholly other connection that one can attempt to be closer to God. But this is impossible to achieve as the bond can never be restored - man can never be free from his sins of bondage that keeps him from God.

Barth went on to accept that the Bible is written by man, and man cannot know God due to our separation of sin. Therefore, biblical divinity (the bible as error proof - commonly held by fundamentalists) is a fallacy. Reading the Bible is God's word, but God's word is interpreted by man, and man is an imperfect being. So one should read the bible not as the true word of God, but as a means to an end. Reading the Bible is the best thing humans have got in order to understand God. So we must reach through the Bible to find Jesus and God, and hope and pray that by trying to re-establish the bond God reveals himself to us.

Very easy.

God is the all knowing, all powerful, perfect being.

You're attributing factors to him, thus claiming to know something about him. Gods have been created that were well below perfection so you can't claim it to be the status quo either.

You're attributing factors to him, thus claiming to know something about him. Gods have been created that were well below perfection so you can't claim it to be the status quo either.

And you are a forum poster on Southperry.net with an "I'm in Space!" avatar. I am attributing factors to you, but do I really know you? It's obvious I don't and I don't claim to do it. But I can still name facts relevant to your personae while still claiming "I do not know you". That is not a contradiction. Thus, I can name these attributes of God while still stating that I cannot know God. The entire Bible is about re-establishing the bond that Adam & Eve broke in Genesis. I'm sure those qualities are in there somewhere.

Also, we could go at this for hours going back and forth between this method of theology and atheism. But I'd rather not waste my days or time.

I am not expressing my belief in this theology, merely telling someone how God can be known yet unknowable.

And you are a forum poster on Southperry.net with an "I'm in Space!" avatar. I am attributing factors to you, but do I really know you? It's obvious I don't and I don't claim to do it. But I can still name facts relevant to your personae while still claiming "I do not know you". That is not a contradiction. Thus, I can name these attributes of God while still stating that I cannot know God. The entire Bible is about re-establishing the bond that Adam & Eve broke in Genesis. I'm sure those qualities are in there somewhere.

Also, we could go at this for hours going back and forth between this method of theology and atheism. But I'd rather not waste my days or time.

I am not expressing my belief in this theology, merely telling someone how God can be known yet unknowable.

You seem to claim unknowable and not knowing every little detail are the same thing. You may not know every aspect of my life but you have access to some of my "attributes" making me not completely unknowable.

So do Atheist believe in Science or things they believe.?

You seem to claim unknowable and not knowing every little detail are the same thing. You may not know every aspect of my life but you have access to some of my "attributes" making me not completely unknowable.

This is coming down to a petty argument of definitions about what it means to "know" someone and is not related to the actual theological argument. Arguing over a definition is pointless and fruitless.

So do Atheist believe in Science or things they believe.?

Define Believe.

@Fiel
So explain the theological definition for knowing something and something being unknown to me.

wait did i miss a point in the thread where things actually became theological? Now there is a topic to my interests when people actually consider things outside their own viewpoints.

To Loose: Known vs. unknown is the same from a theological standpoint. Where things differ is when one is working under an assumption that X is true, as at that point it is pointless to speak outside of absolutes. General logic way of saying it: to discuss Y one must accept X. This is both useful and viable in theology as it is often exploring the idea of omnipotence or the logic that could follow what is a Divinities purpose or there "word" The confusion comes where people insist on bringing the "existance of X at all" back it to the question when it isn't part of the discussion. Theologians are willing to work under assumptions because sometimes they have to, good ones don't consider this a luxury.

In science discussing the merits of things in potentially impossible situations or realities is pointless. In theology, the equivalent isn't. Theology isn't all about proving good or pushing religion.

So do Atheist believe in Science or things they believe.?

You believe in authority, I believe in myself.

+10 respect points for anyone who knows this reference.

2. Defend that position. I've stated my reasons, explain yours.

You made up your reasons and asserted it as history, no further retort needed to your (under-researched) opinion. 'splained.

How do they know about God with God being... unknowable?

In math and science, infinity isn't a practical function it is viewed as acceptable as a concept because it's simpler that way. It isn't something a person can entirely comprehend. This is just accepted as the way it is.

Bring this into belief in any form of divine being and those same people suddenly go WTP IS THIS HORSESHIT.

Where's the inconsistency again?

Infinity is a concept, not a practicality. No matter where you find it.

I though I could as well ask few questions from religious people.

Do religious people believe that in order to be saved, they will have to subscripe to the church, cut their pen0rs, worship elves, start wars and go through the rituals?

Do religious people believe that humans and Dinosaurs lived in the same century?

If God isn't fake, what is the meaning of the word fake and fiction?

Why do you think that God would actually care about who has a religion or not? Because if he did, then he would have pointed at the RIGHT religion, wouldn't he?

Humans created dogs and different breeds of them using controlled evolution. Humans can create clones, plants and genetic manipulations. Are humans Gods now or what?

Why are you so scared of death, if you won't be there when it happens?

Why do you think most of the scientists are Atheists? Don't you ever consider the possibility, that it's cause of their higher IQ?

I think Noah hacked MINECRAFT. How can you make me confident that he wasn't? No way he can get that much wood in such an short time.

I though I could as well ask few questions from religious people.

You could also take your ridiculous assertions I MEAN QUESHONS THEM ARE QUESHONS NOT OBVIOUS THINLY VEILED AD HOMIEMS to a new actually relevant thread. If you want to troll someone because they believe something while not entertaining any thought or opinion they may have, go to another topic. You aren't relevant here.

^He's the TS...

Keep things civil here. There's no need for any kind of inflammatory responses here.

Not my favourite topic, because there are too many assumptions/definitions that can go wrong... and a little disagreement is as good as a ticking time bomb.

I seem to remember that some mathematicians attempted to explore infinity, and came out rather... errr... not very right. Think it was my math supervisor who told me this.

Hadriel

You made up your reasons and asserted it as history, no further retort needed to your (under-researched) opinion. 'splained.

I was referring mostly to the modern usage of the word "agnostic", which is usually the position that "I don't know if there are any gods, and haven't yet made up my mind". At that point, they lack a belief in god(s), which is, by definition, atheism. As Fiel explained, there is agnostic theism is well, but that's not as commonly used. It's not like atheism is about having 100% certainty that gods don't exist.

I was referring mostly to the modern usage of the word "agnostic", which is usually the position that "I don't know if there are any gods, and haven't yet made up my mind". At that point, they lack a belief in god(s), which is, by definition, atheism. As Fiel explained, there is agnostic theism is well, but that's not as commonly used. It's not like atheism is about having 100% certainty that gods don't exist.

The commoness of one path of it is objective how? And the layman agnostic isn't atheist. at it's minimum there is distinction in not being convinced there is or is not a god and being convinced there isn't. I think my response to your points still stands.

^He's the TS...

Keep things civil here. There's no need for any kind of inflammatory responses here.

Not my favourite topic, because there are too many assumptions/definitions that can go wrong... and a little disagreement is as good as a ticking time bomb.

I seem to remember that some mathematicians attempted to explore infinity, and came out rather... errr... not very right. Think it was my math supervisor who told me this.

Hadriel

That doesnt make him in the right. He's clearly baiting anyone who believes anything while at the same time intentionally limiting discussion for anyone that answers the questions he just posted.

Sure he is the TS but those are still troll questions.

I though I could as well ask few questions from religious people.

Do religious people believe that in order to be saved, they will have to subscripe to the church, cut their pen0rs, worship elves, start wars and go through the rituals?

Do religious people believe that humans and Dinosaurs lived in the same century?

If God isn't fake, what is the meaning of the word fake and fiction?

Why do you think that God would actually care about who has a religion or not? Because if he did, then he would have pointed at the RIGHT religion, wouldn't he?

Humans created dogs and different breeds of them using controlled evolution. Humans can create clones, plants and genetic manipulations. Are humans Gods now or what?

Why are you so scared of death, if you won't be there when it happens?

Why do you think most of the scientists are Atheists? Don't you ever consider the possibility, that it's cause of their higher IQ?

I think Noah hacked MINECRAFT. How can you make me confident that he wasn't? No way he can get that much wood in such an short time.

What about the unorthodox form of a deity? Never heard of it? Doesn't surprise me.

 God

[video=youtube;FbinE6bx8xM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbinE6bx8xM[/video]
[video=youtube;7KnGNOiFll4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KnGNOiFll4[/video]

If anything your no more ignorant than the people who evidently "believe" in unicorns. For all you know, you're god of your own realm. The very germs on your body could see you as a deity, yet you don't realize it, you know why? You aren't aware of it. You aren't aware of the creations you create. That's what makes me agnostic, a deity could very well be not be a god, just simply someone with different abilities than us, different purpose, and a different perspective. He fits all the definitions of being the creator, yet it wasn't intentional, his law's not purposely fabricated, a book looking for recognition to simply keep peace rather than create war, which in his own realm he may live day by day.

The only thing you can come up with is the stereotypical guy with a white beard hanging in the sky screaming "BELIEVE IN ME".

Fu`cking stupid.

In math and science, infinity isn't a practical function it is viewed as acceptable as a concept because it's simpler that way. It isn't something a person can entirely comprehend. This is just accepted as the way it is.

Bring this into belief in any form of divine being and those same people suddenly go WTP IS THIS HORSEpomegranate.

Where's the inconsistency again?

Infinity is a concept, not a practicality. No matter where you find it.

Science hopes to discover the truth, but is far from truth itself, or practicality as you call it.
For example, what Galileo thought to be the absolute truth turned out to be relative depending on where on earth he stood. There are countless instances in Math and science where you will just have suck the giant plantain and say, oh well, it works, b'itches.

Religion (at least Christian teaching, as I recall), on the other hand, believes that God is the absolute truth of whatever you can wrap your mind around. Why is the tree green? God made it so. Why is the ocean so big? God made it so. Why am I trying to comprehend God? God made me so. Why CAN'T I comprehend God? God made it so.

I don't have anything against religion, I just prefer to have that fuzzy and warm feeling spread out from my stomach when I do somebody else a favor instead of taking out my good-deeds-for-afterlife checklist and add another tick.

I do have a belief that there is some entity out there governing the laws of the world as we know it. But I prefer to think of him as the programmer of the Matrix or something like that. We'd be doing out pomegranate and him doing his, but he can easily unplug the machine and boom, we're done. Some of the constants upon which our universe was built kind of give away that feeling. Had they been slightly different, our universe wouldn't even exist. It makes no sense so I just attribute it to some guy trying to plantain with us by hardcoding in some random number, maybe 42.

The commoness of one path of it is objective how? And the layman agnostic isn't atheist. at it's minimum there is distinction in not being convinced there is or is not a god and being convinced there isn't. I think my response to your points still stands.

Perhaps we're arguing two different versions of the same word. In my book, if you don't currently have a belief in any type of god, then you're an atheist. Whether or not you entertain possibilities of the existence of the supernatural and are willing to change your mind based on evidence does not change that base distinction. If you are not convinced, then you don't really believe.

And I'll acknowledge being wrong about the origin of the word "agnosticism". Quick google searches show its origins to be T.H. Huxley, but having far greater reaches into the past philosophies. I think I was remembering the way Carl Sagan referred to himself as agnostic, in a time when professing non-belief would make one very much more unpopular to the general public. I have a feeling that part of this was because he wanted to avoid controversy, but I don't believe he ever explicitly stated it like that. However, he himself never seemed to be much convinced with any of the explanations in his time, preferring to see evidence rather than have faith. Depending on the definition, I believe this makes him more of an atheist than agnostic, unless you're defining atheism as having full and complete knowledge of the non-existence of god.

Perhaps "atheism" itself carries too much baggage. I'll just describe myself as "waiting for proof".

I though I could as well ask few questions from religious people.

Do religious people believe that in order to be saved, they will have to subscripe to the church, cut their pen0rs, worship elves, start wars and go through the rituals?

Do religious people believe that humans and Dinosaurs lived in the same century?

If God isn't fake, what is the meaning of the word fake and fiction?

Why do you think that God would actually care about who has a religion or not? Because if he did, then he would have pointed at the RIGHT religion, wouldn't he?

Humans created dogs and different breeds of them using controlled evolution. Humans can create clones, plants and genetic manipulations. Are humans Gods now or what?

Why are you so scared of death, if you won't be there when it happens?

Why do you think most of the scientists are Atheists? Don't you ever consider the possibility, that it's cause of their higher IQ?

I think Noah hacked MINECRAFT. How can you make me confident that he wasn't? No way he can get that much wood in such an short time.

Haha, I'll bite. I'm a Christian and my answers shall be oriented as such.
Do religious people believe that in order to be saved, they will have to subscripe to the church, cut their pen0rs, worship elves, start wars and go through the rituals?


Haha no. Don't blame everyone for crazy zealots. If I follow God's word and repent for my sins, then I will be saved. The only unforgivable sin is the sin of not accepting God.

Do religious people believe that humans and Dinosaurs lived in the same century?

Lol? I'm a Christian and I believe that the Earth is hundreds of millions of years old, not everyone is a backwash redneck who thinks the Earth is 100 years old.

If God isn't fake, what is the meaning of the word fake and fiction?
Is this seriously a question? Fiction is something that the author invents in his head, the same thing it would be wether you believe or not.

Why do you think that God would actually care about who has a religion or not? Because if he did, then he would have pointed at the RIGHT religion, wouldn't he?

God cares about who has a religion because we are his creations. I believe that he has pointed me to the right one and that is why I'm a Christian.

Humans created dogs and different breeds of them using controlled evolution. Humans can create clones, plants and genetic manipulations. Are humans Gods now or what?

Uhhh no? Not even close. Let me know when Humans can create a universe, then we can talk.


Why do you think most of the scientists are Atheists? Don't you ever consider the possibility, that it's cause of their higher IQ?

No, because their are smart Christians and dumb Atheists, you being a perfect example of the latter.

I think Noah hacked MINECRAFT. How can you make me confident that he wasn't? No way he can get that much wood in such an short time.

Yeah I'm not even going to answer such a stupid question. You can get your answer if you go read the story of Noah.

No, because their are smart Christians and dumb Atheists, you being a perfect example of the latter.

Hey now, I believe his questions are stupid as well. But there is no sense in lowing yourself to his level.

Turn the other cheek, no?

KhainiWest & Ladon.

If you really are Christians, then why don't you believe in what the Bible says? Also, KhainiWest. You are assuming way too much things about me, think before you post.

Never heard of unorthodox form of a deity? Of course I have, but that is completely against the teachings of the Bible. If you are a Christian, you shouldn't believe in "wrong god" like that. Calling me ignorant? Read your own post again.

Funny how I got no real answer to most of my questions, but instead I got this Infraction.

I still wonder how in this society, you can flame Atheists, but when there's a small sign of something making fun out of religion, it is bad. There was a time when Religion ruled the world and it's now known as The Dark Ages.

There is no difference between mythology and religion.

If you really are Christians, then why don't you believe in what the Bible says?

I believe you need to go learn about Christians. Following the Bible word by word and believing everything in it doesn't make a Christian, it doesn't make them any less or anymore of a Christian either.

If you're going to go around "bashing" religious people and asking them questions you can at least go about it in a less arrogant way. I don't see no religious or Christian people up in here bashing you or anything. Ladon did a bit of it, yeah, but you cast the first stone bro. And KhainiWest, I think he said he is agnositic or some such. He don't even count.

Bro, before you go around trying to get in debates with people about their beliefs you need to at least drop a little bit of that arrogant air you're putting off. Respect those even if you don't agree with what they believe.